#again I don’t think she’s posting these so anyone interprets it exactly…

[petrovna-zamo]

Russian pop music recommendations by Katya

[stormblessed95]

Hi!

Long time no see....

I did TRY to get this finished as soon as I could, but between the rollercoaster of 'Are You Sure?!', the hellscape that Jikook spaces (on Twitter/X and Tumblr) became (and honestly were already...), and trying to shorten everything down, it took a good while.

But I refuse to keep this past 2024, so here's an gift for the holidays (or maybe not considering the word count 🫥)!

I wanted to articulate exactly what my thoughts and concerns were, especially since this is a more serious topic regarding Jimin’s work and art, but I don’t think it came off that well before.

Hopefully I do better this time!

I’ve seen the many anons that were spamming your and other Jikookers’ inboxes the second WHO and MUSE released because “OMG Jimin said she/her!! He’s single and looking for a woman to love!” became the newest narrative.

While I do think it would be perfectly okay for him to want a female partner, it does make me slightly upset and sad, that people resorted to being homophobic and honestly misogynistic as a response. There is a way to discuss Jimin's potential romantic partners without being nasty to queer fans or possibly invalidating Jimin’s identity (especially since it is not likely that he’d ever fully come out (if he is queer/bi) in the way most people think nor want, given where he lives and his line of work).

Even the way people were talking about women was questionable. Going on about how it is outrageous for Jimin to deny himself the chance to be with a woman, have a biological family, and overall is wasting himself on Jungkook (if they are in a romantic relationship).

Making women out to be objects for men to use and only worth making/raising families, the homophobic rhetoric towards the longevity of queer relationships and same sex parents, as well as the blatant disrespect to Jungkook (that he’s “not enough” or “not right” for Jimin). If someone thinks that Jikook are nothing but platonic friends, that is perfectly fine. But to degrade their bond, as well as Jimin and Jungkook’s characters, is just unnecessarily cruel.

In regards to your response, I would love for nothing more than to say that it helped with my understanding of Jimin and MUSE, but I’m honestly not completely sure of that….

My first ask was sent right after the behind video for MUSE dropped, so before some of your posts that you linked about MUSE and WHO were posted (though I did read them again!).

Before I continue, I do want to make a few things clear:

I’m not stuck on any of my assumptions or thoughts being the “correct” way to interpret MUSE.

I’m not here to convince anyone that Jikook isn’t in a romantic relationship. I’m honestly really just confused.

I don’t need anyone to convince me that Jikook is still real.

I’m simply having a conversation and trying to process my thoughts and MUSE with someone that I trust and respect. Do I always agree with everything said? No, in fact disagreeing with others (Storm in this case) is how I tend to find out how I feel or think about a topic or situation.

I’ve done a lot of thinking about what exactly has been confusing me with MUSE, and I’ve narrowed it down to three main topics or questions: Is MUSE a conceptual album?, Is WHO how Jimin actually feels?, and What does this all mean for Jikook?

This is going to be long, I’m sorry in advance!

IS MUSE A CONCEPTUAL ALBUM?

Initial Thoughts

Since I’m used to Jimin’s recent work, FACE and his Photofolio, having lots of Jimin’s own inspirations and ideas tied into it, like Greek Mythology, German Poetry, Robert Mapplethorpe’s Imagery and Work, ect, with the title being MUSE, the idea that Jimin was going to vaguely write about his inspirations or muses (how Closer Than This is considered for ARMY) seemed likely to me.

Then as the track titles were revealed to be more romantic sounding, it felt like he may have used the concept of love to better articulate another deeper message. Or that he chose to write about a fictional love and focused more on vocal and production styles, in a similar way to what Jungkook did with Golden.

Post MMM

 While watching the MMM video for the first time, I was confused because Jimin had mentioned MUSE being more vague (or conceptual) than FACE but that WHO was his “feelings” after the previous tracks. Ultimately, I took that as him wanting to write about love but not having current personal experiences to pull from, so he decided to make up a fictional love story/crush, and then WHO comes at the end being like “actually that’s not true. i’m not in love, though i want to be.”

Then I saw this post:

https://www.tumblr.com/just-orbiting-you/756542511466643456/muse-is-a-concept-album?

I went back to watch MMM immediately, and was almost horrified at how I managed to miss or maybe interpret parts of Jimin and Namjoon’s conversation differently.

JM: I really tried to express all the emotions I felt at the time. “What do you talk about these days?” “How are things going?” Those were things Pdogg asked me about and I felt that it had been a while since I felt excited about something.

RM: Oh, over something.

JM: Yeah. We hadn’t been active as a team for a while either. I was working hard, I wanted to do well and was trying but it felt like it had been a long time since I was immersed in something or felt excited about something.

RM: So, since your life felt really bland, you expressed your different feelings through Muse?

JM: I tried to capture that in my album. I set my album like this, from tracks one through five, those emotions compared to having a crush and confessing my feelings.

RM: Having a crush is exciting.

JM: Exactly! So I share how I feel, then in track six which is the title track, I go, “no, that wasn’t really true”. “When will I feel excited about something again?”

RM: Then does it connect to Face in any way?

JM: Not really. It’s not that connected.

RM: Face was then?

JM: Those were my emotions then. Getting clarity, and this time it’s just vague.

With this in mind, as well as the fact that BOTH Jimin and Namjoon talked about Jimin’s work, singing, and idol identity more than anything to do with love, made the idea that search for love = search for his inspiration/excitement with his art more possible.

MUSE Behinds

Then the Behinds for Muse dropped….

Which led to my first ask:

https://stormblessed95.tumblr.com/post/758126579695190016/hi-ok-so-i-just-rewrote-everything-i-wanted-to

Looking back now, I don’t think I presented WHY I was so conflicted after that video that well in my initial ask.

JM: This album has a lot of cheerful songs. But I wanted to try a different approach for just the title track. There will be a lot of fun songs.

JM: It was harder to write the lyrics this time. I had to pretend to go through experiences I haven’t had before. I’ll explain it one by one in more detail later.

So I know a lot of people have been using the “pretend to go through experiences I haven’t had before” to explain the “looking for love” vibes of WHO, but my understanding of Jimin saying this was that it’s towards the first five tracks (where he sings about having a crush and falling in love). While both relate to it being a concept, it being about the rest of the album (the love part) does make it sound like he’s currently single.

JB (Jon): *interpreting Jimin’s ideas* I’d like to fall in love. I wanna, I’ll do what it takes to fall in love. I still don’t feel it, so what is my heart waiting for?

JM (Through the Translator): It’s just a bit sentimental, so it doesn’t get too intense like, “Where is she?” It doesn’t get too depressing.

JM: It’s not supposed to be sad or anything.

Translator: He’s not like, not too deep into it. He’s like “This is what I’m feeling right now”.

JM: It’s kind of embarrassing to explain emotions. It feels like someone found my diary.

Translator: Thank you for explaining everything so honestly.

JM: My ears are red. *touches ears*

I really do want to hear more of what Jimin told Jon directly about his (Jimin’s) vision for the song.

While Jimin still could be working through the idea of a concept about his inspiration, when he says “It feels like someone found my diary”, to me it really did sound more personal to him than expected.

Especially to be getting so embarrassed about it.

JM: I’ve poured all my emotions into this, so I was very embarrassed just now. Even though they just wanted to ask about the story I wanted to tell. It’s just, everyone…. *laughs*

JM: Everyone’s just living alone, right? That’s what it is.

Yes, technically he does LIVE ALONE or he could have been using the feeling of not having that excitement to being alone….

But I'm curious as to what he meant by “everyone’s just living alone, right?” within the context of WHO, MUSE, or even in general?

Producer: If the album is going to be all about expressing the process, we could just go all out conceptual.

Producer: I thought we could do a story with a specific concept, and I thought it’d be great if we chose a name for a band.

With SGMB, the confusion for me was more about them mentioning it being about “expressing the process” and being conceptual after I had thoughts about WHO being more personal.

Now I wonder if they meant the process of falling in love.

Response to Your Thoughts

I really liked your take on the title of MUSE and relating it to inspiration and the Muses of Greek Mythology. It fits in line with what we’ve seen from Jimin, as well as what I was initially expecting.

Like I said above, after going back and paying attention to what they were saying (I literally typed out the entire video to go over 💀), the search for his inspiration and a version of himself that he’s fully satisfied with seemed likely to be the concept of MUSE.

Rejecting WHO, because “he didn’t write it”, feels not only disrespectful, but stupid to do so. It’d be one thing if Jimin had clearly stated that he had no connection to the lyrics/story and just liked the song that was given to him (though this is still weird, because him liking the song and presenting it to fans is valid and important). But that’s not what happened.

Yes someone else wrote WHO, but we’re literally told AND shown that Jimin was involved when they wrote it. That Jimin himself explained what he wanted to express through the song. Along with his further involvement with the MV and the choreo.

If he is explaining his search for inspiration through the idea of romance, that is incredibly smart and endearing of him. It shows me how much his work and art matter to him. That he’s willing to work on bettering himself (even if I thought he was already amazing) to achieve even better results that he can truly be proud of.

While I can see where topics surrounding his sexuality can come into play with WHO, more so with the MV, I’m under the impression that Jimin has come to terms with any gender expression or sexuality issues he’s had a long while ago. But still, even if he is accepting of who he is, others (ARMY, South Korea, The World, ect) might not be.

I’m happy though that even while in this search (whether for inspiration, satisfaction, or love) that he’s still able to be happy and content with where he is at and who he is.

Producers’ and Jimin’s Thoughts

Hearing that MUSE was born after Jimin was so excited to work on music, especially considering the darker topics discussed in FACE, makes me so unbelievably happy. The songs ending up as upbeat and hopeful, even romantic, really does make sense in that context.

But I'm honestly more and more confused the more people talk about this album.

The producers say the album is about looking for some imaginary woman, while every song other than WHO is gender neutral. Even with WHO, we are shown a version that was gender neutral.

“He’s a Korean Idol. He’s going to be portrayed as straight!”

So why is Jimin not following that?

Most (if not all) of what I hear him talk about in relation to MUSE is gender neutral. I don’t have an issue with Jimin making love songs about women, but make it consistent with the rest of the album that THEY (Jimin and Producers) wrote then!

Is it Personal or Conceptual?

Yes…

It's true that conceptual doesn’t have to mean fake, but the question I’m often left with is “In what way is this album conceptual?” Is it his search for inspiration and excitement of his work through a romantic lens OR is it his search for his person through a made up love story?

The idea of most of the album being love songs about a made up relationship/crush just to be like “I’m actually single and alone!”, does frustrate me a little. Like he’s an Idol, it’s already assumed that he’s single.

“Please misunderstand”, Park Jimin, what does this mean??

At first I thought maybe he meant him being in a relationship, because the songs (up until WHO) read as him confessing to someone or telling ARMY about his partner. But WHO exists on the album… so that narrative is already clear.

So is he not LOOKING FOR A WOMAN? Or is he not SINGLE?

Is the album not about his LOVE LIFE but his work?

Because ANY of those would actually make more sense to misunderstand.

Why is he releasing this in the military? I’d understand if he was planning on revealing a partner, but based on what Jimin, the producers, and WHO are saying, he’s single. So is he announcing that he’s looking for love once he’s discharged? Then we go back to it being assumed that he is already single… and not going to lie, that is a little strange to announce? Why make an entire album for that?

Why is Closer Than This on the album? I’m desperately hoping it’s not some sick way of saying “At least I got ARMY”..... and then what is Letter for?

IS WHO HOW JIMIN ACTUALLY FEELS?

The Song

So the only song that Jimin doesn’t have writing credits on is supposed to be the one depicting his “true feelings”... Interesting.

According to the producers, the song was born out of Jimin having trouble relating to a love serenade they were trying to write initially, and thus ends up asking himself if he can ever really love someone. With the song apparently being about the reality of feeling lonely and melancholy, and asking yourself where the person for you is , it does make me think that he hasn’t been in a long term romantic relationship for years, if it’s directly about Jimin and not just the concept of the song.

“He’s an Idol, of course he’ll say he’s single and doesn’t know what love is!”

Ok, but why mention it at all?

I could maybe see Jimin not being out to his producers (or more so with his possible relationship with Jungkook), but it’s also not hard to just take him at his word (via the producers) that he’s unfamiliar with romantic love.

Jimin mentions that when he meets up with friends, they’re all feeling similarly flat. I wonder if that flatness is towards not being in a relationship or feeling uninspired with life and/or work? He goes on to say it’s not a sad or scary feeling, but it’s also not exciting. This could go for either concept (Love or Work) to be honest.

The MV

Initially with the MV,  I just saw Jimin dancing with girls trying to find the one but ending up alone (in line with the song). The only thing that I really had trouble processing was the billboard…

I’ve read through multiple analyses of the MV since my first viewing, and I’ve noticed a lot more details that are somewhat questionable.

Auto Calibration being the main one as it flashes on screen after Jimin dances with men and then leads into him dancing with women. This does give some queer vibes, and makes me interested in what “story” Jimin had in mind with WHO as the choreo also has similar vibes too.

Jimin mentioning people instead of just women as potential options when passing by is also interesting, especially when he has mostly talked about this album gender neutrally.

The billboard with SOMEONE’S EYES dropping after Jimin sings “Who is my heart waiting for?” does seem as though it's an answer for Jimin, or maybe others. Especially when WHO with NO QUESTION MARK and Keep Going are written on it. In my opinion, it does resemble Jungkook's eyes. But I find it hard to take it as a promotion of some sort when it quite literally interrupts the MV, seemingly for no reason, instead of being a poster in the back.

Then of course, there is the insane potential connection of Taeyang, someone Jimin is a known fan of and is now friends with, showcasing his then girlfriend (now wife) on a billboard in a MV….

The Choreo

Most of the choreo just matches with the lyrics, but there are some parts that I found interesting.

During a Chorus part Jimin joins up with SIX OTHER MEN. I don’t know if this is supposed to be a BTS reference or just formations. But what is the point of having SIX when there is only FIVE later for the girls vs boys part? Why not just keep the seven men (including Jimin) and have seven girls? Where’d the other guy even go?

Next in Verse Two when Jimin sings about “taking her places they ain’t found yet, putting it all on the line, and being that someone she can count on”, he dances with two men. Why? Would it not be better for him to do some sort of partner choreo here?

In the bridge, he repeats “who is my heart, heart waiting for?” as he passes by BOTH WOMEN AND MEN. Sure he only tries to match with women, but he’s a kpop idol and the song uses female pronouns, so that’s expected. I’m sure the male dancers were most likely included just to have it look better, but considering Jimin saying people when talking about it, the gender neutral version of the song, and that Jimin was involved with the choreo, it’s something to consider!

Jimin also keeps mentioning the choreo feeling like a short film or musical, which makes all the film (play, pause, rewind) details in the MV fit.

I am a bit disappointed that he, once again, warned fans about him interacting with women in the choreo. Even to the point of saying “moments that you might find uncomfortable” and “please don’t be too disappointed”

This is part of the reason I’m genuinely confused if this was to be some big “ARMY I’m dating/going to date!” announcement, because why would he care??? He mentions that “it is part of the grand scheme of things”, does that just refer to the story aspect of the choreo or is there more to it?

His conversations with his friends come up again, about how there are few instances to feel really strong emotions and him thinking “Should I start feeling more passion?” while making WHO, and that the writers of WHO worded the story he wanted to tell in such a lovely way.

The choreo has a lot of fun theatrical elements as he seems to want to express a lot of picturesque scenes, and the dance suits him while being simpler and fresh. But he’s still concerned about how to express the emotions for this song, as it isn't a sad song, but it does kind of become one towards the end.

Jimin’s Truth

With the amount of story elements, I’m considering the song being more of a way to describe his feelings about needing passion in his life than a detailed recount of his “failing love life”. It’s still his thoughts and feelings, but maybe expressed in a more digestible way for the audience.

If he is being up front about his romantic past, then I really do hope he finds his person, whoever they might be.

Park Jimin OF ALL PEOPLE deserves to love and be loved!

WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN FOR JIKOOK?

Being More Open

I know Jimin, and all idols, needs to be careful when talking about love. It’s why I’m so confused as to why this concept, and why now? Though with Jin stating that he wrote Falling for someone, maybe this is just part of BTS being more honest and open.

I do want to take Jimin and Jungkook’s words and actions seriously, however part of what has been said about MUSE and WHO from Jimin and his producers, does make me question if I (and the rest of us) were mistaken of what the nature of their bond is.

Why Does It Matter?

I think part of the reason that it's important to me to know if Jimin is legitimately saying he’s single, is that I do want to respect him and his words.

“So why were you shipping him with his bandmate?” 

Personally I’ve always left room for doubt when it comes to Jikook. It’s not everything I think about in terms of BTS, Jimin, and/or Jungkook. Nor is it the end of the world for me if they’re simply platonic friends. I just thought Jikook seemed like they were/are dating.

Now I’m a little confused on where I stand, and knowing what MUSE and WHO are about in relation to Jimin would help. I know you obviously can’t know exactly. But I’m hoping I’ll get something other than “Jikook is real! Stop doubting them! You’re projecting your internalized homophobia!” OR “Jikook isn’t real! Jimin is straight and looking for a woman!”

Random AYS Interjection

I did want to finish this before Are You Sure premiered because I didn't want to keep talking about this past then and really didn’t think I had that much more to say.

But as I was going through my ask, your response to me, your posts you linked, my notes on Jimin’s video, the new videos that were being uploaded, and other anons and bloggers opinions, I realized this was going to take longer than I thought.

Part of me was also curious if my thoughts on MUSE would change how I saw Jikook in Are You Sure. Honestly my surprise when I didn’t find anything that pointed to them breaking up or being just platonic, was nothing compared to seeing that my opinion was uncommon to quite a few in the Jikook Community….

“What about the Car Conversation?!?!”

OK???? What about it?

Honestly, watching people discover that Jimin and Jungkook were busy and missing each other (or at least quality time) in 2023 for the first time this August was interesting to say the least…

We could get into the abuse and bullying allegations, calling Jimin being anti romantic over things taken out of context or making it into some weird narrative that Jimin doesn’t love Jungkook as much or that he sees their relationship as the Devil, or the fifty other weird things some of y’all said on your "Jikook Supporter" blogs…

But this is about MUSE, so THAT RANT will have to wait!

Final Conclusion

I’m still confused, but I do think after reviewing things that there is more to MUSE than I think. Especially with stories and theatrics being involved in so much of the concept.

I really just want to know what MUSE is about. The misunderstanding thing was fun for like a couple days, now it just makes me anxious and stressed. But maybe it was supposed to be like this 😔

Thank you for actually responding to my first ask so nicely and being willing to have this discussion with me!

Sorry this response took forever, hopefully it's somewhat decent 😭

Hope you're doing well, and are having a good holiday!

— Nice Muse Anon 🎨

I'm going to cry. I typed this whole fucking thing up. And it got deleted. So here we go again 😭

Hi love, I'm going to do this in a bit of a direct response thing. Copy what you say in red and then reply to it and so forth. Here we go. It won't be EVERYTHING you say, just the parts I wanted to make a comment about....

But I refuse to keep this past 2024, so here's an gift for the holidays (or maybe not considering the word count 🫥)!

And yet here I am months later. Sorry!

Your first 3 opening paragraphs about homophobia and misogyny.... Hard preach!

IS MUSE A CONCEPTUAL ALBUM?

Rejecting WHO, because “he didn’t write it”, feels not only disrespectful, but stupid to do so. It’d be one thing if Jimin had clearly stated that he had no connection to the lyrics/story and just liked the song that was given to him (though this is still weird, because him liking the song and presenting it to fans is valid and important). But that’s not what happened.

Agreed

Yes someone else wrote WHO, but we’re literally told AND shown that Jimin was involved when they wrote it. That Jimin himself explained what he wanted to express through the song. Along with his further involvement with the MV and the choreo. If he is explaining his search for inspiration through the idea of romance, that is incredibly smart and endearing of him. It shows me how much his work and art matter to him. That he’s willing to work on bettering himself (even if I thought he was already amazing) to achieve even better results that he can truly be proud of.

Agreed x 2

Hearing that MUSE was born after Jimin was so excited to work on music, especially considering the darker topics discussed in FACE, makes me so unbelievably happy. The songs ending up as upbeat and hopeful, even romantic, really does make sense in that context.

It does make sense in that context!

“He’s a Korean Idol. He’s going to be portrayed as straight!” So why is Jimin not following that?

This is part of why he is beloved. Him and BTS. They do this all the time and queer or not, it's impactful and meaningful and special to so many people

It's true that conceptual doesn’t have to mean fake, but the question I’m often left with is “In what way is this album conceptual?” Is it his search for inspiration and excitement of his work through a romantic lens OR is it his search for his person through a made up love story?

Personally, I think it's option 1. People can have their own opinions though, no right or wrong answer. Some might even have other options they think it is

The idea of most of the album being love songs about a made up relationship/crush just to be like “I’m actually single and alone!”, does frustrate me a little. Like he’s an Idol, it’s already assumed that he’s single.

1000% fair and I can even agree a bit with that frustration. Mostly my frustration there is with the company and fans though that cultivated this environment for idols

Why is he releasing this in the military? I’d understand if he was planning on revealing a partner, but based on what Jimin, the producers, and WHO are saying, he’s single. So is he announcing that he’s looking for love once he’s discharged? Then we go back to it being assumed that he is already single… and not going to lie, that is a little strange to announce? Why make an entire album for that?

I don't think he is announcing anything exactly. Like it's not a release meant to be for an announcement. If that makes sense. He isn't trying to inform people he is single and/or ready to mingle. He is trying to share emotions and a story. Why during MS? Idk.

Why is Closer Than This on the album? I’m desperately hoping it’s not some sick way of saying “At least I got ARMY”..... and then what is Letter for?

Usually singles that are released before albums get put on the album. Personally I think that was a one off goodbye song for ARMY before the army. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the album concepts or themes at all... Lol it just got stuck on the album because of release times. But that's just me and what do I actually know 🤷‍♀️

What is letter for? Good question. There are soooo many theories lmfao

IS WHO HOW JIMIN ACTUALLY FEELS?

The Song

According to the producers, the song was born out of Jimin having trouble relating to a love serenade they were trying to write initially, and thus ends up asking himself if he can ever really love someone. With the song apparently being about the reality of feeling lonely and melancholy, and asking yourself where the person for you is , it does make me think that he hasn’t been in a long term romantic relationship for years, if it’s directly about Jimin and not just the concept of the song.

Fair enough friend. I disagree but that's totally fair and valid feelings to have

“He’s an Idol, of course he’ll say he’s single and doesn’t know what love is!” Ok, but why mention it at all?

Because with the concept and theme being what they are, it would be discussed to hell and back (low-key hello is us in this post) and it's "damage control" regardless on how I feel about that, it's most likely what it is. No matter how annoying

I could maybe see Jimin not being out to his producers (or more so with his possible relationship with Jungkook), but it’s also not hard to just take him at his word (via the producers) that he’s unfamiliar with romantic love.

I personally Don't form my opinions too much based on things that are second hand. I still take them into account for sure. But I don't put too too much stock into things that via someone else on behalf of any of BTS. Because really, they can just say anything. Now don't take this as me dismissing things said, because I'm not. I'm just clarifying for everyone that I form 85% of my opinions ONLY on things that are direct from Jimin himself and based directly on Jimins actions. Things are going to be influenced by personal bias always as well too

The MV

I think we are mostly just mostly on the same page with everything you said here

The Choreo

Again, mostly think we are on the same page about your thoughts here. Will just comment specially about....

I am a bit disappointed that he, once again, warned fans about him interacting with women in the choreo. Even to the point of saying “moments that you might find uncomfortable” and “please don’t be too disappointed”

Very fair and honestly same. Again, mostly in the fans and company that have cultivated that environment he feels like he has to operate in now. I do wish he would care less about it though.

This is part of the reason I’m genuinely confused if this was to be some big “ARMY I’m dating/going to date!” announcement, because why would he care??? He mentions that “it is part of the grand scheme of things”, does that just refer to the story aspect of the choreo or is there more to it?

Jimin just cares a lot and very deeply about everything that matters to him, which includes his job and his fans. As for the grand scheme comment, I personally think it's in regards to the story aspect of the choreo, but that's just me

With the amount of story elements, I’m considering the song being more of a way to describe his feelings about needing passion in his life than a detailed recount of his “failing love life”. It’s still his thoughts and feelings, but maybe expressed in a more digestible way for the audience. If he is being up front about his romantic past, then I really do hope he finds his person, whoever they might be. Park Jimin OF ALL PEOPLE deserves to love and be loved!

HARD AGREE!!

WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN FOR JIKOOK?

I know Jimin, and all idols, needs to be careful when talking about love. It’s why I’m so confused as to why this concept, and why now? Though with Jin stating that he wrote Falling for someone, maybe this is just part of BTS being more honest and open.

Between Jin saying he wrote falling for someone, and Joon with some of his songs and posts... And some other things and comments, I really really hope that they come out of MS feeling more free and giving less of a fuck about certain fans and their feelings about things. But only time will tell

I do want to take Jimin and Jungkook’s words and actions seriously, however part of what has been said about MUSE and WHO from Jimin and his producers, does make me question if I (and the rest of us) were mistaken of what the nature of their bond is.

Fair enough friend

I think part of the reason that it's important to me to know if Jimin is legitimately saying he’s single, is that I do want to respect him and his words.

Highlighting the respect part, because everyone should want to do the same

Personally I’ve always left room for doubt when it comes to Jikook. It’s not everything I think about in terms of BTS, Jimin, and/or Jungkook. Nor is it the end of the world for me if they’re simply platonic friends. I just thought Jikook seemed like they were/are dating.

Yes

AYS comments....

Honestly, watching people discover that Jimin and Jungkook were busy and missing each other (or at least quality time) in 2023 for the first time this August was interesting to say the least…

It really brings back up that whole media literacy thing I keep bringing up people's lack of and as well as people's lack of understanding of relationships in general (platonic and romantic) doesn't it. Lol

We could get into the abuse and bullying allegations, calling Jimin being anti romantic over things taken out of context or making it into some weird narrative that Jimin doesn’t love Jungkook as much or that he sees their relationship as the Devil, or the fifty other weird things some of y’all said on your "Jikook Supporter" blogs… But this is about MUSE, so THAT RANT will have to wait!

Always willing to have any kind of discussion with you lovely 🎨! Either through asks or DMs.

Your conclusions

I’m still confused, but I do think after reviewing things that there is more to MUSE than I think. Especially with stories and theatrics being involved in so much of the concept.

I agree

I really just want to know what MUSE is about. The misunderstanding thing was fun for like a couple days, now it just makes me anxious and stressed. But maybe it was supposed to be like this 😔

JIMIN PLEASE. YOU ARE KILLING US. And this is for sure how it's going to stay. We are getting NOTHING more from him 😭😂

Thank you for actually responding to my first ask so nicely and being willing to have this discussion with me!

Fucking always. But I feel like I didn't actually DO anything for you here and I'm so sorry! I wish I could be more helpful for you in a discussion. Let me know if there are things I can give a more in depth opinion on if I haven't already?? I enjoy talking with you and hearing your thoughts!

~ Storm⛈️

[jadehaven]

Ok I just have to point out something—

and before anyone forgets, the soul purpose of this tumblr is to radicalize the shippers. so no, i will not stop posting about them.

:D

*ahem*

What people fail to realize is that despite this being Elrond’s rescue plan for Galadriel, she doesn’t realize it’s a ruse until after he kisses her.

Which means when she reciprocates the kiss, dare I say, meets him for the kiss, she fully believes he is kissing her because he wants to.

Just for a moment, the fullness of her heart believes that there is more here than what she’s known there to be.

Just for a moment, it’s real for her.

Then the moment is cut short, as he hands her the pin. But she doesn’t open her eyes in surprise until the very moment he passes the lock pick into her hands. Then she realizes what he’s really doing.

That’s why she’s surprised. She registered the shock of Elrond’s plan before she registers the fact that she just kissed her best friend.

I see everyone saying “Galadriel’s face says it all! She thought it was funny!”

Does she look like she’s laughing to you?

I think her initial shock was exactly what Morfydd has said: Galadriel wouldn’t expect him to be so bold.

But then what follows, I believe, is confusion, and will possibly be conflicting for her in her feelings for Elrond in future seasons. Her face to me says “Did he mean it at all then?” and maybe later she will ask herself the question, “Do I want to have meant something more than a ruse?”

I mean, if she still has flashbacks of her “I felt it too” moment with Sauron, then you can’t expect me to think she’ll never go back to this. Elrond will look at her a certain way, or perhaps touch her face again, and she’ll be brought back here. I know it.

At least, that’s how the trope is meant to play out. But as JD and Payne have said in interviews, they provide the material and the viewers don’t always interpret the scene how they expected or intended them to. Fair play, I suppose.

Ball is in your court, writers. Use it wisely.

[cozymochi]

bro apologies for not enjoying Emilio as much as Celil or Nyoka

and I want Tia not to be so underrated☹️☹️ our green queen💚

To be fair — It’s on me that Tia isn’t willingly brought up much. Offline and when reading twst (or if I encounter writings where the protagonist isn’t specified) She’s like, my main go-to person I default to and will base voice-line interpretations around when I’m not trying to be dead serious. Gives me brainrot and makes me kick my little feetsies.

However, if I’m being totally honest, in public fandom spaces she’s kinda… a dime a dozen. She’s just another MC or “Yu” stand-in, and that in itself especially to those who don’t really think about it that much, she doesn’t exactly stick out as anything particularly special or unique. At least, not in the grand scheme knowing that Tia is just one of hundreds of thousands of interpretations of a Ramshackle Prefects. And that’s not even getting into the inspiring her off a disney princess thing which also isn’t exactly a new concept for some prefects either.

I don’t really go out of my way to be special or unique nor is it something I’m too concerned by, I just do what I would be interested in.

Tia in execution might be different to me, but mind I know everything about her that isn’t posted. How she interacts with that world is a slight departure from what’s lined up in the #canon events (not in any extreme way), but outside of myself and the friend who was there since the start, nobody would really know that since I don’t talk about any of it. 🤡🫡 I don’t know if anyone’s noticed, but I’m not one to bring these things up without prompting first. And in the opportune chances I get to do so, I tend to sit on it for months or laugh it off cuz I don’t know how to articulate it properly in an interesting enough way. It’s not that I don’t have answers, I do, but I psyche myself out.

I mean, there’s a reason why her actual solo lore and information doesn’t even reach a tenth of a fraction of what the usual trio of NRC boys gets. It’s probably easier for a person passing by to briefly wrap their head around the idea of a new student rather than yet another version of an MC that-- due to the nature of the original game being soooo vague and almost entirely a spectator despite being called the “main character”— just isn’t all that eye catching or worth people’s time, I don’t think.

She might have a different pre-twst life, different way of handling Ramshackle, Tia-specific issues, and relationships with the main cast and how she perceives the events going on around her, and might be slightly more active compared to #canon (this being the “outline” in the game), and have different overall priorities when acclimating to TWST so long as she’s stuck there that are all influenced by the aforementioned— but all of that ultimately doesn’t matter. I don’t talk about it, and when there’s already a ton of different versions of the MC out there in official and unofficial media, it’s like! Why bother! It doesn’t do anything for anyone else to know these things.

So I just don’t talk about her. At least, not in any intimate character way. And even when I could use her in place of the Prefect in more generic scenarios, I opt not to most of the time, because again, I do not think people in general care about the concept of the MC that much. Not helped by the game at all, but what can you do when you want to leave room for interpretation on a wider scale? It’s for function and projection, even if it kinda leaves this awkward hole if the viewer doesn’t go out of their way to characterize the MC themselves.

Unless Grim looks at the camera and demands that MC make a sandwich for them it’s easy to forget that they’re even there, and if one thinks about it for 2 seconds it can really feel contrived that this random person who adds nothing is witnessing certain events. (Book 7 is more egregious about this, but I will not go into it.) If my brain switches MC to Tia then all of a sudden this issue leaves. You know what I mean? Idk.

Wider interest only seems to briefly shoot up when placed under the context of a ship situation, which, despite what others do, say, and how I sometimes play along, Tia doesn’t actually have one. (Not a “””canon”” one, anyhow.) So, she doesn’t have that going for her either.

She’s just some random girl who kinda acts like the character she’s directly inspired from- if from the 2020s instead of 1920s. Starting from that basis people can get an idea of how she acts if they’ve seen the movie, but it’s not always 1:1. If not, then because I don’t talk about her with any effort, people don’t have much to draw from except from generic Shrimpy. Not a great start. She can stand on her own without either, it’s just me not trying nor going out of my way to convey what I’ve been invested in this entire time.

But, yeah. She’s my baby gorl and will always be MY default and main point of interest when I’m personally reading TWST, but she has a lot going against her in terms of general appeal. It’s not even really her fault execution-wise it’s just. Y’know. Yeah. It’s on me. I don’t talk about her up here and don’t exactly have the nerve to do so on my own accord without asking myself what the point of doing so is.

So in a way, as a result she’s not underrated at all. Just exactly where a twst “main character” is expected to be. An afterthought.

[venture-through-the-mist]

Thoughts on The Lotus Eaters

As I’m sure is obvious, this will be discussing the Lotus Eaters quest in detail, so if you haven’t played it yet, I’d suggest skipping this post! I don’t want to spoil it for anyone (because even though it’s a short quest, I still think it benefits from being played with no prior knowledge of what it entails), so the full post will be below the cut.

Alright, I have SO many thoughts, so I’m going to try and keep this somewhat concise…ish. This is mostly just a bunch of rambles, so I apologize for any grammatical errors or if it’s hard to understand. I just kinda…wrote what came to my mind.

First off,

The Music: I briefly mentioned this in another post, but holy shit the music for this update is amazing. I mean, we all knew it would be, Warframe has a tendency to put out absolutely awesome songs, but oh my god. We get two more versions of what is one of my favorite songs in the game. The loading screen version of ‘This is What You Are’ has to be, by far, one of my favorite things I’ve heard from this game. I love the feel to it, like a combination of ‘old’ Warframe with ‘new’, 1999-era Warframe. I’ve had it playing on repeat almost all day because it’s so good.

Now, for the version of ‘This is What You Are’ that we actually get during the quest, the one that Lotus is singing to herself. I, admittedly, didn’t pay too much attention to it when I was actually playing the quest, at least not beyond “omg Lotus is singing, that’s awesome” (I was just too excited about the actual quest lol). However, when I listened to it again, I was fascinated by the subtle differences in how this version sounds compared to the ‘normal’ version of the song, or even to the new version in the loading screen. The singing is a lot more staccato, and the notes don’t flow into each other in the ways they normally would. It’s almost as if Lotus is having to concentrate more on what comes next (at least, that’s my interpretation), which makes sense given that we know that she’s singing in order to drown out the Indifference’s voice. Her singing also sounds a little sad, or maybe just lonely, to me. Her mind is filled with the Indifference trying to influence her, and she’s taken it upon herself to be a barrier (or as she says it, a “distraction”) between It and the Tenno. She’s secluded herself (again), and her tone of voice seems to reflect that.

Also, after the quest, if you go and talk to Daughter/Kaelli in the Necralisk, ‘Party of Your Lifetime’ plays now, instead of whatever song was playing before. I just think that’s neat (and also brings in some interesting ideas for 1999…what did our Drifter do?).

Moving on…

The Story: I had absolutely zero idea where the story was going to go from this update, but I was a bit worried about how they’d go about locking us into playing as the Drifter for 1999, since — although I 1000% agree with why the Drifter is definitely going to be the one going back in time — I’m definitely someone who would rather play as my Operator for my own lore reasons (and I can’t think of a reason that my Operator would let the Drifter do this instead of her). I was actually wondering if they’d actually lock us into the Drifter without giving us a choice, or if they just wouldn’t give us the option to do the romance stuff if we chose Operator (for obvious reasons…bc yk, they’re a child). But, I really enjoy the route they went down, how Lotus knows that the Drifter has to be the one this time, because if the Operator does, that might just be giving the Indifference exactly what it wants. She’s, once again, protecting her kids in the way she knows how, by taking them out of the conflict in any way she can.

But, I’m getting a bit ahead of myself, so let’s backtrack a bit and talk about how cool it is that we see the Operator and the Drifter interacting with Lotus at the same time. I may have missed something in the quests leading up to that, or this might just be something attributed to the Man in the Wall’s hijinks, or…something, but I thought that they couldn’t be in the same place at the same time/in the same ‘reality’. So, I was quite surprised (pleasantly, ofc) to see both of them. I really love the difference in the dialogue options when we initially talk to Lotus. The Operator is torn between wondering if Lotus is alright, and also being super worried about what the hell the noise is, in a way that makes me think they definitely suspect that the Indifference is meddling with things again (which makes sense, given that they’re actively in the Sanctum). Honestly, the Operator was probably waiting for something like this to happen. They know, or at least suspect, that Lotus saw the Man in the Wall after the battle with Ballas, it was only a matter of time before that became important. The Drifter, on the other hand, is more concerned with Lotus herself, warning her to be careful, reassuring her, but also wondering what she means by “It’s you”. Maybe the Drifter doesn’t really know the extent of the effects that the Indifference has on the System, maybe the Operator is just trying to protect Lotus in the only way they know how…get the perceived danger away from her first, ask questions later (I’ve noticed from their dialogue throughout the game that the Operator tends to have a bit of a sharper temper than the Drifter does…perhaps bc they’re younger). Either way, it’s nice that they have different responses to seeing Lotus and hearing the noise.

I chose the “Are you okay” and “What do you mean, ‘it’s you’?” dialogue options, and I absolutely loved that my Operator’s line was “This isn’t just a bad memory, it is? This is new”. This acknowledges, at least in my interpretation, that Lotus does have lingering emotions from everything that’s happened in the past (Ballas/The New War, Hunhow, etc). Once again, Warframe surprises me by remembering to make the trauma that a character has gone through actually relevant to the story even after we’ve dealt with the source of the problem. I probably shouldn’t be surprised at this, but most video games I’ve seen don’t tend to do that. Usually characters are…somewhat fine after experiencing something horrific, so it’s refreshing to see a different (more realistic, imo) take on it. This isn’t even the only time we see this in this quest/afterwards. Lotus outright confirms it herself (“I will not let it devour one instant of my pain. Not even Ballas. Not even the Jade Light.”), and in doing so, is also showing us how she’s dealt with the events of the prior storylines. She’s gone through a series of extremely traumatic events, and she still has those painful memories, but she’s not going to succumb to the Indifference, even if It promises to take that away. She’s been hurt, yes, but she is healing, and she’s finally in a place where she can actually do so as herself. That doesn’t mean it’s easy for her to ignore the voice that’s calling to her —the voice that only she can hear— but she’s determined to. I’m curious if the voice-lines after the quest are different if a player had chosen Margulis or Natah instead of Lotus after the New War, though.

I find it very interesting that Lotus calls the Drifter ‘my champion’. I just really enjoy the fact that she definitively sees the Operator and the Drifter as two separate people, as opposed to ‘her child’, and ‘her child but older’, because I feel like that fact could have certainly been a cause of a bit of discomfort and a learning curve for both her and the Drifter after the New War.

Now, onto the 1999 portion of the quest, which, even as short as it was, was quite interesting. It was really weird to be in the Mall again and not hear ‘Party of Your Lifetime’ playing or see other Tenno dancing around the stage (like how it was during TennoCon). It was quite eery, and I love it. Also, we got to see Kalymos again, so that’s a plus.

All in all, this quest answered a lot of my questions about how the game is going to transition to 1999 (and even answered questions that I didn’t know I had). However, I am slightly (read: very) concerned at the same time, mainly because of the line with Lotus saying “If I become something you do not recognize, do not mourn”. I feel like that’s potentially foreshadowing something…They don’t usually put lines like that in without reason. Maybe I’m just reading too far into that…but I suppose we’ll see when 1999 comes out.

Anywho, another thing that I wasn’t expecting but am really glad that we got was the continued acknowledgement of Lotus/Natah/Margulis being a system. This happened not once, but twice (to my knowledge), and I think it’s really great that they didn’t just disregard the whole “I am not one” thing from The New War after we made our choice between the three of them. It’s really nice to see that that wasn’t just a one-off line, especially as we continue to get more and more moments where the game references them.

This is already way longer than it probably should be, but what can I say? I like well-written characters, and this game has so many of them. I’ve definitely forgotten some things that I’d wanted to put in this post, but ah well.

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

A Long Rant About The Koffin Trio

Note: So, this is my first (really) long post about this fangame, and to be honest, I was debating whether or not to even publish it. I still decided to do it since not a lot of folks talk about ts!underswap, and I wanted to give my two cents regarding my three favorite characters.

More important note: If you think it's gonna trigger you to read about Harry/Larry and Harry/Larry/KK as a found family, better click off this post. Maybe it's my inner aroace speaking, but I personally don't see the romantic appeal at all. Good for you if you do! I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion; diversity is great after all :)

For those of you who are still here, I will start off by saying this:

Harry and Larry depend on Count Koffin-K for so much. I'm tempted to say EVERYTHING.

He genuinely feels like their father figure. I mean, this sentient fedora gave them a job while they were both living lives that were... bad.

He isn't cruel when they do something stupid and instead just looks deadpan. Sure, Koffin-K's not a perfect boss; he yells at the two of them and insults them (dude really needs to work on his temper), but I found it sweet how both Harry and Larry felt safe enough to tell him the truth here, which to me counts for something (pun intended) ↓

He even pranks them sometimes ↓

Koffin may not be perfect (he's gotta keep up the "evil" persona) but at least he 1) tries to give Harry and Larry a hint that he cares for them (has them both secretly do his laundry without them telling each other) 2) actually admits that he cares for them both equally (in his own way) 3) attempts to solve their disagreement despite him not gaining anything out of it

How they met is also interesting to me.

Based on their backstory, Harry and Larry were clearly hesitant to work for Koffin, but when they actually started the job the next day, I imagine that their conversation went something like this (either during the first day or at some point early on in their career):

H: "Larry, he could be like the dad we never had and provide for us and we could have all da money that we never did, see?"

L: "Huhuhu, yeah! Don't forgets da food!"

...and that's how the parade float came to be. I think Koffin secretly appreciates they made it, even though he says how he wanted the thing "as far away as possible" right after saying this line ↓

He also makes this face later on at the festival when he sees the float again cause it reminds him that the three of them are a family despite Harry and Larry getting on his nerves half the time but I can't include the screenshot bc of the picture limit

Heck, the two even built their house outside the keep, which to me suggests that they don’t ever plan on leaving Koffin.

Harry does mention his mother, and we learn that he's into embroidery (both making me think he's a a 'mama's boy'; maybe she taught him how to embroider)...

...but even on the ts!us wiki, the only relationship dynamic the two have is with Koffin-K himself.

Weirdly enough, we only know that Harry has a mom, but not a dad

Even though he was definitely unaware of this, Koffin liked Harry and Larry FOR BEING THEMSELVES. This is really important to me.

He saw something in them that others did not, even if it was initally just "your names rhyme and you give me the 'goofy henchmen' vibe." He sees them both as useful for what he needs them for. It may not be much, but it's exactly what Koffin's looking for.

In other words:

THE WAY HARRY AND LARRY ARE IS ENOUGH FOR COUNT KOFFIN-K. I mean, why look at resumes of competent potential employees when you can hire two idiots who are just as goofy as you

Exactly why Harry and Larry are so loyal to Koffin-K is unknown, but based on my interpretation, it has to do with 1) them desperately needing a father figure/someone to rely on 2) Koffin giving Harry and Larry a home, food, money, and a job that also allows them to slack off and finally enjoy life, and 3) him making them feel needed. Maybe not appreciated, even though he subtly tried to, but definitely needed. Serving under him became their purpose.

In other words, I think they're so loyal because Koffin "chose" them, even if he did that subconsciously.

Harry got the chance to be more than just a janitor. Imo, he was hesitant to work for Koffin at first because he was afraid that he would lose the only sense of security he had. I think he lived with his mom at the time, considering his low-wage job This explains why he wants to be rich (to make up for all the things he couldn't afford).

It also explains why Larry loves food so much (he literally slept under a dumpster bag and if he was both homeless AND unemployed, it would mean that he had to either be a beggar or eat from the trash. Either way, eating good food was out of the question.

It's also possible that Larry had a janitor job just like Harry (but unlike him, nowhere to live). I say that he might have been a janitor, since Koffin mentions how they could both do better than mopping floors forever, but maybe it was just an assumption on Koffin's side.

Whatever the case, their lives sucked.

There was also this one moment I wanna talk about, where Larry called Koffin-K stupid, and Harry pretty much agreed. So I asked myself why they reacted this way.

Maybe because it was easier to convince themselves that they didn't care about their boss than deal with the fact that he (maybe) always saw them as nothing but 'lowly servants'.

Seriously, Harry said out loud what they both wanted most of all. And that something was for Koffin-K to value them. This was more important to them than money and food COMBINED, considering their entire arc was about learning that Koffin needed them both equally

Maybe they were worried about getting fired, but I honestly don't think Koffin ever wanted to do that to them, no matter how many times they messed up.

Maybe they didn't want to be honest and admit to Koffin that he's a total dumbass so they wouldn't get in trouble with him. I mean, they did want to gain his validation/appreciation/approval/love, so it makes sense that they would do anything to get and remain in his good books.

I think the third scenario is the most likely one, tbh.

Might be a nitpick, but notice how Harry and Larry are walking next to each other here, but Koffin-K's at the back, just sorta... isolated, like he's not their equal? This is why I'd rather see him as their father figure than an older brother. The way I look at it, the oldest sibling is usually in charge, yeah, but there's still a level of closeness and familiarity between the siblings, whereas Harry and Larry hardly know anything about Koffin-K, ESPECIALLY how lonely he really is. Koffin's the one who gave them a purpose, became their boss, and as a result, they began looking up to him. In contrast, the two spend 24/7 together, bicker, and are practically inseparable, like brothers

Larry also explains how Koffin-K doesn't like leaving his study, but clearly neither Harry nor Larry reflected on why that is and just assumed it's because Koffin's 'stupid.' This reaction kinda rubbed me the wrong way at first, but then I remembered both of these dudes are street rats who don't know any better.

Look, I know the Boogiemen were supposed to fit this common "goofy villain's sidekicks" trope, but both of them clearly grew up in poor conditions, have daddy issues (imo), and feel worthless/useless.

That's why they want Koffin-K's attention so badly.

They need a father figure to reassure them that they're useful, important, and loved.

All this makes them three-dimensional and relatable, just like most UT/DR/UTY characters. It feels like everyone in these games goes through some kind of deep arc, and I feel like this is supposed to be the Boogiemen's

Sure, Harry and Larry are funny at first glance, and they're great at being comic reliefs, but at their core, they are misguided guys who come from poverty/homelessness. I kinda wish the feisty four from uty had more going for them just so I could psychoanalyze them all

Even though it's probably been a few years since they joined Koffin, at least some part of Harry and Larry doesn't seem to believe that they can finally enjoy themselves, even if it means doing hooligan stuff and boring chores. That's why they're 'superficial' and goof off and will grab any opportunity to act childish and materialistic.

A typical case of age regression

What lies beyond the surface is incredibly sad to me.

Now, this is sort of like a bonus section bc I want to explain WHY exactly I see Harry & Larry as brothers, and WHY I think they see Koffin as a dad again, maybe it's bc I'm aroace and I see family relationships everywhere, but the stuff below REALLY REALLY reminds me of these types of dynamics:

They threw insults at each other and had a literal fistfight over which one of them Koffin appreciated/liked more

They cried HARD (of joy) when Koffin told them they're both equally useful and useless, so they no longer had to be at each other's throats. He also said how he recognized that they're passionate about being his lackeys, even if their teamwork needed, well, work

I think it's sweet how they built the float 'within their first days of henchmenry,' according to KK. They could have easily NOT included him, but had apparently warmed up to him pretty soon

Harry wanted to call Koffin to save them + I love how he's CERTAIN he'll do it

Both yelled for Koffin (reminds me of Axis calling out for Chujin for some reason)

Larry called Koffin Keep their home (could have easily said that they left it at the keep...reminds me of the times Starlo called The Wild East Clover's home I really need to stop with the uty parallels)

They cheered for him (and got hit in the face with books)

They get in trouble with him

They apparently copied two of his attacks these 3 are so similar except that Koffin is a more 'head in the clouds' kind of goofy while Harry & Larry are more grounded... but still goofy

And this line... "And quit arguing, you two!" sounded so parental, istg

I forgot to mention some stuff:

After Koffin tells everyone to go to the festival, Harry and Larry quickly look left and right, like they're wondering where he is and/or what to do now that he isn't there. Poor guys really are dependent on him and like to be in his presence

They talked about Koffin a LOT throughout this game. Their conversations are either about 1) Koffin and what they're gonna do to please him, 2) Them bickering, or 3) Some shenanigans they get themselves into. Larry even remembers how Koffin-K always says: "If you're slacking, put some hustle into it"

Koffin doesn't treat any other lackey the way he does Harry and Larry, and none of the other lackeys seek his admiration like the two do

Harry and Larry were both jealous af of Chara for getting all the attention (right after they got into Koffin's study Harry said "Now whaddya need us in here for, see?" and I immediately thought that he wanted to add "you have a new favorite child lacky now so why don't assign more chores TO THEM")

Like I'm not sure if they were meant to come across to us players as a family but for some reason that's how they came across to me since day 1

The actual reason why I see them in this light is not just bc I love found family (even tho I do. a lot), but bc I feel like it would give Harry & Larry more depth than a romance between any of them

[mvnvgedmischief]

bro i hate when people get mad about logical conclusion. if u make a post like “i hate lily bc she married james and i think he’s an asshole” and u tag it with all the prosn*pe tags, u can’t then be like “i NEVER SAID i wanted her to end up with snape!! why does she have to end up with anyone!” she’s harry’s mom. she does ancient magic to keep him alive in the wake of voldemort. if she ends up with no one there’s no series. or alt did u want james to marry someone else. u seemingly hate james, so i dont think u would be satisfied with anyone who married james. the reason the binary exists is because we’re talking about harry’s parents, without whom the story does not exist. am i fucking insane, or was the boy NOT born from an immaculate conception or the crashing waves of the sea a la aphrodite.

i’ve said it before, i’ll say it again. u can consider SWM as sexual assault, but that understanding has to exist in the context of when these novels were written. between 1998 and 2010 the act of pantsing someone was a widely used trope. it happened in almost every kids tv show i watched growing up. none of those children were supposed to be perceived as being assaulted. see also: wedgies being a super popular trope in media. it’s FINE if u want to present it as the marauders did something heinous to snape in ur own hcs/fanworks/interpretations. idc, i will not engage. but like HOLY SHIT we cannot possibly be living in a world where the cultural context of these things does not exist because it’s not convenient to ur narrative. the canon does not support SWM as an act of sexual assault. what the canon supports is that snape felt humiliated and embarrassed, as it does for any piece of media from that time with a pantsing happening. the canon also supports lily saying she would rather kiss the giant squid then james DURING the incident, and that snape called lily a SLUR because he didn’t want her help.

i’m not saying all this to say u can’t like or enjoy any of these characters. they’re all complex and interesting. you can also attach whatever interpretations on them you see fit. HOWEVER, what i AM saying, is ur gonna have to back ur shit up. ur not “wiping the floor with them with canon” if ur not understanding the cultural context of children’s media at the time, and only saying “but doing this is sexual assault the law agrees!!!!” the law in 2025 might agree but the tropes of the children’s media of the time don’t come with that context. you can write this type of dynamic while being informed of that now, but u can’t exactly be shocked when people don’t see it that way. u gotta back it up with more shit.

i like examining snape as a character. i think he and sirius are very interesting character studies in what could happen in relation to abuse and indoctrination, overt and covert. but holy shit, we cannot be adding things that aren’t there without at least the understanding that the interpretation of these actions will differ from person to person.

and if u are doing these things, u don’t get to turn around and say “oh they ran away with their tail between their legs” if someone chooses to stop engaging with u. people have whole lives outside of the internet. u don’t win a debate just because someone stopped responding. ESPECIALLY if ur being super fucking condescending saying “my dear” and “hugs and kisses” in an argument. sometimes people are literally fuckin busy or uncomfortable. this is internet slap fighting, there’s no winning or running away. just a limited amount of time before people decide to stop interacting.

anyways i am a stay at home hot pilates gf. this is all of the ranting i have time for. im fucking employed.

[panharmonium]

Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric!  It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start.  People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them.  That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great!  I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7.  If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi.  That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text.  But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.  

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great!  But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.”  She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1.  She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father).  But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time.  This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together.  She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does.  Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation.  She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here.  I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.  

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home.  Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!”  And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better.  Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark.  This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.  

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling.  There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered?  Of course it is!  But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!” 

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention.  The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants.  She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him.  She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t.  But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).  

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction.  She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him).  “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish.  It’s irrational.  It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation.  They both still think they can fix him themselves.  They both think they can save him themselves.  They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests.  Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything.  Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes.  What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests.  They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children.  They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about.  Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES.  He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him.  He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.”  She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me.  It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE.  How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has.  Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about?  Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him.  He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side.  Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets.  I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys.  She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation).  But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]  

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.  

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much.  Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki?  Good, appropriate.  The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does?  Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them.  Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden?  Juicy!  AND thematically significant (promises!!!!  the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again).  Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start?  HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)?  BRUH.  Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win??  INCREDIBLE.  (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!!  It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!”  I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.)  And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!”  I love her for that.  

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all.  Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him.  She cares about him too much.  This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others.  She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.  

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1).  This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be.  Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too.  Time didn’t just stop for them when he left.  While he was turning into someone new, so were they.  They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.  

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear.  Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return.  He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him.  And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance. 

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way.  The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him.  And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back.  She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago).  That’s huge!  Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter.  She stayed her hand.  She spared his life.  She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down.  She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain.  Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.  

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation.  This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down.  Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc.  She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.  

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically.  She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her.  She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”).  She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her.  She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit.  She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him.  He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him.  She still wants to help him.  She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development.  It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality.  The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7).  He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking.  His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest.  He always has.  She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise.  Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective.  Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here.  We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god.  She’s finally going to let him have it.  It’s finally happening - ”  I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me).  But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.”  That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her.  He thinks about all of them.  Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine.  He cared about her once.  He cared about all of them.  She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story.  I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three.  It doesn’t work like that for me.  The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine.  My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive.  That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else.  You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story. 

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

[david-talks-sw]

I was 17 when The Phantom Menace came out and was miffed by the Jedi’s reaction to Anakin because he missed his mother and was rightfully concerned her about her. In Attack of the Clones he’s a young adult who is having nightmares about her and as we follow along we learn that she met and a man and was freed. So why in the years she was free have the two not talked? She knew where he was. Then she dies and lastly we have Revenge of the Sith where he’s worried about his wife and child dying.

Now I did not then or now take Anakin as being greedy for wanting his loved ones to be safe. The Jedi come off as a closed off body considering they start training children at such a young age that they don’t know their families and they forbid contact or their members from loving someone. Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story.

So for me the story is a family getting caught up in a religious war and it having dire consequences for them. Anakin was saved when Luke went against his teachers and tried to save his father proving beyond any doubt the Jedi were wrong.

Yoda even thinks the Jedi need to change at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novel.

(You're covering a lot of subjects, I won't go into detail on any of them because I already commented on them, I'll just link my other posts, you can click to see what backs up my argument or just take my word for it.)

I think you're free to have your own headcanon and/or interpretation of the films.

Fact remains though: you were 17 and the Prequels were made for 8 to 12-year olds.

Maybe it's because I saw it in Italian, maybe it's because I was like 5 or 6, but my takeaway of the Yoda telling Anakin that "fear is a path to the Dark Side"... was just that. That fear is a path to the Dark Side. I took it the same way others took the "do or do not" scene in ESB. Yoda didn't come across as particularly mean, and clearly isn't meant to come across that way either.

"[Shmi] met and a man and was freed. So why in the years she was free have the two not talked? She knew where he was. [The Jedi] forbid contact or their members from loving someone."

I never saw anyone outright forbid Anakin from seeing Shmi, in the movies. If we go by Canon, Dooku met his father and wasn't expelled, and in Legends, Adi Gallia speaks of her parents with reverence, as if she knew them.

Why have Anakin and Shmi not talked? Because Shmi is living with a farmer, she's made a new life for herself, and even if she wanted to, it'd be trying to get from Tatooine to the capital of the galaxy on a farmer's budget.

"Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story."

Yes... but not exactly.

Love itself isn't forbidden. Love over duty is forbidden. It's not about not being allowed to be in a relationship, it's about being fully committed to whatever relationship you choose. In Anakin's case, he needs to choose between the Order and Padmé, and half-asses his commitment to both.

"Yoda even thinks the Jedi need to change at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novel."

Yeah... but not in the way you think.

The whole passage of that novel goes into how the Jedi were beaten because the Sith shifted the battlefield by going into politics, which the Jedi had no experience against. The Jedi were expecting an actual fight, instead they got checkmated by the very thing they were upholding.

The moral of that passage isn't "the Jedi were flawed because they didn't allow people to see their parents or because they didn't allow people to love" it's "had the Jedi been less politically-inept, they wouldn't have been blindsided."

"So for me the story is a family getting caught up in a religious war and it having dire consequences for them. Anakin was saved when Luke went against his teachers and tried to save his father proving beyond any doubt the Jedi were wrong."

Again: this is cool. More power to you.

But it's not the intended narrative.

Sure, Luke is proving them wrong in the sense that they thought Vader would never willingly come back to the Light - but even then, look how beat up Vader needs to be before he does.

But at the end of the day, Ben hopes that Luke is right.

He hopes that Vader can become Anakin again. It's just that he's painfully aware that the chances of that happening are very meager, and what's much more likely is that Luke will die instead or worse, fall to the Dark Side. Which almost happens. Again, love vs duty.

Luke isn't proving Ben wrong by rejecting the temptation of the Dark Side and sparing his father, a defenseless foe, because, just this once... his duty is to choose love, it's to show compassion.

He's just... being a Jedi. That's standard Jedi stuff.

And Jedi are awesome.

[frangipanilove]

I don’t really understand how Beth would’ve ended up in all these different places. Is it because of the Commonwealths? The CRM? I’m confused and hate to say so cause it should be obvious but I’m feeling lost on it. I guess I should just trust “Beth is alive” and we’ll see her again. Just frustrating how long we’ve waited for her.

Hi friend, sorry it took me so long to get to this. I’ll try to answer, even though it might not be the kind of answer you had hoped for. I’m not really sure what you mean by “all these different places”. I personally don’t have any fixed opinion on exactly where she will show up, geographically. I expect there to be lots of hints and symbolism referring to her in Daryl Dixon season 2, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I believe she will literally show up. She might, but I’m not relying on it.

If your question is about the logistics of world travel, I don’t think that should be a problem. For starters, remember this is fiction. If tptb wants something specific to happen, they can just write it. We’ve seen that technology for world travel exists in this universe. We’ve seen advanced military technology like chinook helicopters, that were able to cross the North American continent without any issues. We’ve seen Daryl cross the Atlantic on a boat, we’ll see Carol do the same with a small plane. In FTWD we once saw Strand communicate with an astronaut on the International Space Station. Also in FTWD, we once saw them rehabilitate an old aeroplane and fly it out of a nuclear waste zone. We’ve also seen them travel by using a hot air balloon (shaped as a beer bottle, no less, and I’ve written about the incredible symbolism of that elsewhere)

For what it’s worth, people were crossing oceans centuries and millennia ago, and while I don’t think Beth’s on a viking ship or a balsa raft, humans have always migrated, and I don’t think a zombie apocalypse is enough to stop that drive. People will travel if they have a reason to, in real life, and certainly in fiction.

Tptb have also dropped hints of international trade throughout the seasons, with references to coffee (which only grows under very specific conditions), exotic fruits like pineapple, and also sugar cane. While none of that guarantees the presence of an international trade network, it does indicate the existence on one. At the very least, it renders it plausible that one COULD exist.

Also, Major General Beale from TOWL mentioned the CRM has spies everywhere, and I don’t remember his exact words, but I believe he mentioned overseas territories. So I wouldn’t worry about the logistics of travel. If TPTB want Beth to show up somewhere specific, they can just write it.

But there’s one thing we have no real insight into, and that’s the business part of the equation. Remember, TWD is ultimately a business, and if Beth is to come back, it will be because someone made the business decision to bring her back. And we can’t know what goes on behind closed doors at AMC. We can’t really know why she wasn’t brought back a long time ago, and we can’t know IF she’ll be back at all. We can’t really know for sure that EK even wants to come back. We can speculate, analyze interviews, social media posts etc, but it will still only be speculation and our subjective, biased interpretation.

And that’s what we do in TD, right? We watch the show and look for ways in which the symbolism tells us Beth is coming back. There’s an extensive symbolism framework present in TWDU that would help facilitate her return, and I like to believe it’s there for a reason. But ultimately no one can know for sure.

So I’m afraid I can’t guarantee that Beth 100% for certain will be coming back. I watch the show and I offer my interpretation of the symbolism, but you’ll never hear me make any promises, because I don’t think anyone can.

I understand the frustration, but for me, I’m a fan of the entire franchise, I love the main show and the spin offs and the entire TWDU, and I’ll continue to watch my favorite show regardless of whether or not Beth comes back, and that helps. I’d love for her to return, and I do believe that’s the story the symbolism is telling us, but I enjoy the show immensely regardless.

I hope this helps, but I’m sorry if it wasn’t the answer you were hoping for. Would love to hear more of your thoughts though 🥰

[catwouthats]

I didn’t want to post anything Loki related bc I don’t like promoting Disney shit after what they did (FUCK DISNEY! they donated 2 mil to Israel. So, don’t give them money y’all), yet somehow this is RELEVANT for social issues???

Basically

Mobius- Structural Functionalism

Sylvie- Conflict Theory

Loki- Symbolic Interactionism

But Loki and Mobius flip flop a little.

If you know sociology, this probably just damaged you emotionally. If you don’t know sociology, you are probably confused. Let me explain. Also I have more I want to say about what this all means. (SEASON 2 EPISODE 6 SPOILERS)

Structural Functionalism- Basically, things like institutions (schools, prisons, etc), roles (what you are expected to do), rules, and strict control are seen as important to hold society together. Each part is needed for the system to survive (else something else will try to take the broken system’s/part’s place… usually messy. Thinks break/slow.)

Conflict Theory- A lower class is oppressed by the upper class. Belief that the systems in place are made to oppress those who don’t have the power

Symbolic Interactionism- seeks to understand relationships between people. The importance of them on an individual level. Why and how one’s personal circle affects how they interact with the world as a whole. focusing on the symbols that help us give meaning to the experiences in our life. Symbols are subjective. Everyone has a different interpretation. The meanings of these symbols can change.

Mobius- Was devoted to TVA (institution). Generally interested in how to use the system as it is. Likes the structure and set up (until later?). Doesn’t question authority (until others do. Follows norms and peer pressure). Did not want to know who he was a while (against social norms in his society that was the TVA institution)

Sylvie- TVA oppressed her all her life. She’s interested in all the people wronged by imbalanced power that is the TVA (herself and everyone along branching times). Interested in equality. Mad at bourgeois (She is passionate and didn’t know as much as Loki —WHO WAS FUCKING TIME SLIPPING SO OFC IT MADE MORE SENSE TO HIM— so ofc she gets mad and makes “rash decisions” bc in her eyes they are logical.)

Loki- Personal. Think “Why?” Questions. Why did He Who Remains do this? Why do I have to be alone? He’a affected by his family/friends. THAT is what causes him to invoke change in society. He doesn’t admit it at first, but it’s clear that he treats everything personally to him. He is a God, something I see as more symbolic rather than functional because it makes everything personal to him on a different scale. The symbol of the TVA changed it’s meaning to the tree of life because of him.

He fixed it all by fixing his personal issues… or breaking them. It’s not how real life exactly works —it’s magic— but it’s interesting. It makes an interesting point. Not that one person is the hero, but that, despite EVERYONE’s group work, still at least ONE person had to give up living (usually it’s too many).

The reason I bring this up is because, again, it is so interesting. I thought this was gonna be copaganda (that one Ep Loki says some wack shit.. which he doesn’t agree with anymore I don’t think bc he literally ripped it apart)(maybe it still is copaganda?? Idk, that’s not the point of this thing). This media actually showed the importance of each social theory individually though. AND HOW THEY CAN WORK TOGETHER TO BRING CHANGE! I’d argue they need to work together to bring change.

You need to have that closeness to each other, that understanding of why people are reacting in ways (symbolic interaction). So you can grow stronger as an organized group and figure out plans (structural functionalism). So you can stand up STRONG to your oppressor without leaving ANYONE behind, so you can reduce the HARM of the oppressive system (conflict theory).

I know this is all over the place and I apologize. It seems weird to talk about something so serious using a show (especially when the thing owning that show is part of what you’re speaking out against??)(like seriously wtf Disney!??? Fuck you!!!??)

That said —off topic again— when it comes to Loki, I think he is going to have to find away to be with Sylvie & Mobius again. He has no defenses. They, Sylvie and Mobius, are his defenses. They help him to not die/kill others. They help keep the TVA workers stable to support him. They help keep things in check so no one gets treated unfairly. He needs both of them.

Anyways, back on topic, this can all be overwhelming. Society as a whole. Just remember that we have each other’s backs. You might not feel it yet, but trust me, more and more people are coming together. They/we are doing more and more amazing things, things that get bigger and bigger with more of an impact.

We are stopping weapons from being shipped.

We are boycotting.

We are donating to support.

We are spreading the word.

There is love, it’s just not ever given by the oppressors. Don’t ever look for love there; the people that are hurting family and friends are not ever going to give you love.

Also, if any part of this is off or insensitive please let me know. I’m terrible at being socially human, like my words don’t get interpreted how I interpret them.

[hekateinhell]

this is from a while ago but you mention on that poll about armand's love interests you have a few different ways you interpret the blood communion speech armand gives lestat about loving him. i'm curious what your takes are, if you don't mind sharing :) as a daniel/armand shipper, i've always read a lot into the fact daniel isn't name-dropped - as though he's an exception or what they have is something more than just love... though the out of universe explanation is probably just he was forgotten (also apologies if you answered this before and i missed it)

Actually, I know I talk about Lestat and Armand a lot and I've certainly spoken about that scene plenty, but I don't think I've broken down my various interpretations in post form before. I don't mind sharing but remember, you asked! ♥️

I have four basic interpretations, the first of which I use for meta purposes and the others for headcanons/fic as needed.

Interpretation 1: Armand does love Lestat the most. This is the canon read and the one I default to because it's quite literally in the text. I know with VC we tend to selectively 'read between the lines' (I'm guilty as hell), but there's also times where Anne meant exactly what she wrote and I do find it extremely consist with Armand's characterization up to this point.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a healthy love, or even a romantic one though! In my opinion, it's at least in part related to the fact that Lestat's almost always present when Armand's going through some of the most traumatic events in his life (neither of them exhibit anything close to a healthy attachment style). Because these are not two mutually exclusive things, I do tend to read them as having more of an all encompassing, soul-connection type of love. Both can be true.

From 'does anyone else know the size of your soul?' to 'in my wanderings, I always return to you' to 'I have loved you more than any being in all the world whom I’ve ever loved' -- Armand simply does not talk to or about anyone else like this in canon. The depth and intensity of Armand's love for Lestat has been a very persistent thread since TVL through to BC and it seems to be rooted in a genuine passion and appreciation for Lestat's character, flaws and all (because oh boy, can Armand list them all or what?).

I adore them as a ship, but this is not the scene in BC that has me kicking my little legs with glee (honestly, I find it tragic for all involved):

“Fool,” he said again. His voice was roughened now by emotion he couldn’t suppress. “I have always loved you,” he said. “I have loved you more than any being in all the world whom I’ve ever loved. I have loved you more than Louis. I have loved you more even than Marius. And you have never given me your love. I would be your most faithful counselor, if you allowed it. But you don’t. Your eyes pass over me as if I don’t exist. And so they always have.”

“I hate you as much as I have ever loved you,” he said. [...]. I understand the very definition of ‘hate’ when I think of you.” ~ Armand, BC

Like, it's heartbreaking! I don't want this like this! Your ask is related to Armand's POV and I've already posted at length how the text (and Anne) very clearly states that Lestat does, in fact, love Armand very much so I won't get into that further here, but... yeah, yikes. I want better for Armand, I want Louis. 🤧

I'm sad now.

Interpretation 2: Armand does not love Lestat more than Louis, Marius, (or Daniel). This seems to be the more popular read and I totally get why, and I can work with it in theory!

If Armand wanted to shock Lestat back to life and into reacting and doing something about the situation, throwing Louis's and Marius's names around seems like a decent bet. Loving Louis and Marius deeply is something that Lestat can understand, it's something he and Armand have in common; it's yet another thing that bonds them together for better or worse.

Daniel isn't anyone particularly special to Lestat, what would be the point in Armand bringing him up at a time like this? He's a cunning guy, he's choosing his words carefully.

Interpretation 3: Armand's straight up traumatized and broken thinking Marius and Louis are dead and gone, and he's desperately trying to cling to Lestat for dear life because he's the only one he has left (channel Anne and forget about Daniel for a second here). Unfortunately, all their issues that have been festering and compounding since 1791 rear their ugly head and explode rather spectacularly.

What you get is a combination of 'I love you more than anyone; I hate you more than anyone.'

RIP.

Interpretation 4: Armand loves Daniel most of all. And I think I typically tie it into the second one. Yes, Armand loves Daniel more than Lestat, Louis, and Marius. No, he's not going mention him to Lestat for reasons listed above and/or he's not going to downplay his love for Daniel like that. He's a gentleman!

Bonus Interpretation 5: Anne forgot Daniel, plain and simple; I waste years of my life.

All that being said, I don't think Armand walks around with a hierarchy in his head of everyone he loves. He obviously has an abundance of love to give and he loves so fiercely! Pick your read and run with it, I sure do ;)

[loveinhawkins]

‘Steve & Nancy fic (gay Steve character study & introspection)’ is joint 2nd on the WIPs poll for now, so here’s some thoughts ❤️

Steve being gay is an interpretation that’s very personal to me & close to my heart. it’s not mentioned unambiguously in nbtdad, but it’s certainly what i had & continue to have in mind (kinda curious if it came across to anyone in certain scenes—it was at the forefront of my thoughts when he’s recounting his past time at the Simon & Garfunkel concert ❤️) & i more recently hinted at it in the post s1 Steve character study 1983 is calling.

for this fic, i’m still thinking over exactly how to frame it, but i’ve got a quote from little women in mind that Steve resonates with & he ends up getting reminded of it as the book’s in Nancy’s 1983 bedroom in The Upside Down. Steve’s dealing with some guilt & internalised homophobia at the thought of ‘wasting Nancy’s time’ years ago. i also just love taking a look at Steve & Nancy’s friendship, the ideas that while in s2 they were trying & failing to support one another, they click as friends in the future. ❤️

rn i’m thinking there may be some kinda confrontation scene with Eddie when he’s pushing for Steve & Nancy to get back together in the woods, but Steve & Nancy’s relationship is the main focus. undecided on what the main time frame is for the fic so here’s the little women quote & a lil sentence or two ❤️

“Oh, Teddy, I’m sorry, so desperately sorry, I could kill myself if it would do any good! I wish you wouldn’t take it so hard, I can’t help it. You know it’s impossible for people to make themselves love other people if they don’t,” cried Jo inelegantly but remorsefully, as she softly patted his shoulder, remembering the time when he had comforted her so long ago. “They do sometimes,” said a muffled voice from the post. “I don’t believe it’s the right sort of love, and I’d rather not try it,” was the decided answer.

Looking at her now, Steve feels that weight again, pressure behind his ribs. Another crack beneath the surface—too many to count. I’m sorry. I should’ve been able to love you like that.

WIPs Poll

[eisforeidolon]

https://www.tumblr.com/eisforeidolon/718435014496354304/sure-you-can-interpret-deans-sexuality-however

I was literally called biphobic by a heller because I said in canon Dean is straight. She squalled about how she’s bi and Dean is so special to her because he is just like her, and just because he doesn’t act on his attraction to me it doesn’t mean he can’t be bi.

Like, bish please, he says he doesn’t swing that way specifically at least twice, and in other words a bunch more times. Dean. Says. He. Is. Only. Into. Women.

Also, another person on this same forum chipped in with suggesting not using the word canon because it’s triggering. 👀. Only if you hate the text of the story. 🙄

It really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp. And, for real, like whatever you want and ship your little heart out, but stop screaming how it’s canon when it isn’t, and how if you don’t support it you’re a bigot. It’s insane.

Also, you noting how he could tick a box and they’d still explain it away. Well, on the hook-up App his profile says “interested in: women.” What do they do? Photo-shop it to say men!

Ugh!!

Sorry for the rant, but I feel you on your frustration with this.

I'm sorry you had to put up with that, anon. I was a multishipper until I got pissed off at all the posts shouting you had to be a homophobe to think canon detestiel wasn't a thing, but at least it wasn't done on a personal level.

Oh, man, I just find that kind of bizarre projected overattachment-as-interpretation so fucking weird and off-putting. "I'm bisexual and I see myself in Dean, so Dean must be bisexual! I was abused as a child and John reminds me of my abuser, so John must have canonically done X type of abuse!" As if any character is remotely relatable to you then they have to be exactly like you/your experiences in all the details? What an absolutely bizarre and myopically self-centered way to engage with fiction. Like, with a perspective like that do you get that other people than you exist and have different experiences, even when they might have some things in common, too? Just ... IDGI and I don't want to.

I also just can't with the idea that the word canon is triggering. I ... can't. As if it hurts you that there's a source material that doesn't match the fantasies you made up in your head instead?! What.

Again, yeah, the problem isn't the ship at all. It's that they can't just stay in their lane and be remotely normal about it - trying to insist it's canon despite the actual canon because [giant pile of horseshit, projection, stereotypes, and wishing reallll hard] and insisting anyone who refuses to play along with their make-believe must be a bigot. I don't care if people ship a ship I personally can't stand anymore, I care when they're fucking delusional flaming assholes about it.

And don't even get me started on how they wail about being queerbaited and then do shit like photoshopping that screenshot to say men to quite possibly actually queerbait other fans into believing it's legit canon. Ugh.

[dkniade]

Can I just say that I’m glad to see more fans of datsugoku here? LIKE ITS SO SO GOOD AND GOD SO TRAGICC THEY DESERVED BETTER!! Also also your analysis on Oktavia’s cover was FUCKING AMAZING HOLY HELLL/pos

(If anyone’s curious about the song mentioned here, note that the first link’s music video contains flashing lights and rapid motions, and the themes include violence and character death)

Thank you so much!! I really love Datsugoku’s MV for telling such a story in a mere 3 minutes and 47 seconds while combining music/lyrics/visuals together well. I remember how I used to really look up to sidu for her work on Datsugoku, particularly for its lighting and video editing haha. Over the years her artstyle has changed but Datsugoku is one of my favourite “phases” of her art style I’d say

(I think to this day if I’m trying to get someone into Neruke I’d just send them the MV haha)

But as a song it’s just really cool to listen to as well. The riff at the start, that guitar solo in the middle (I wrote a post about my interpretation of the solo’s narrative significance) IT’S SO GOOD. One of the best—or most memorable?—solos Neru has written I think. I like that you can get one interpretation based on the music/lyrics themselves, and another slightly different interpretation based on the MV (since what’s described in the lyrics don’t exactly match what’s happening on-screen even though they’re describing the same event.) This mismatch (?) in how the media forms are staggered (?) is so cool, like when the LYRICS say (using my translation)—

.

Slamming down on the rusted throttle

with all that I’ve got—

so hard that I’d break my bones—

Right now, let’s break through reality

.

—but the ANIMATION shows the moments before, where Kawasemi throws the knife to rip off Kuina’s blindfold, mouthes something in a cocky way, and runs away to start the chase…!

-

(Note that the next link here goes to a post which links to a video with flashing lights and rapid motions.)

AH speaking of a tragic ending that deserved better, back in 2021 I was able to participate in a Neruke 10th anniversary fan medley MV, and did the illustration for Datsugoku! The section chosen was of course the very guitar solo itself so I tried to depict a scene of freedom and happiness in the illustration. Whether the smiling and relaxed Kawasemi is alive in the illustration is up to interpretation, haha…

It’s to match lyrics like—(note that this section of the lyrics kiiind of alludes to metaphoric drugs, and again character death)—

.

“Increasing the altitude without a change in your expression, you laugh”

(“顔色変えず高度上げて君は笑う”)

.

and

.

“As the engine heats up, I don’t care about what’s happening to the plane’s body, so high I was in the blue heavens”

(“エンジンがヒートして　機体がどうしたって気にもしない程に　トリップしてしまう大空は偉大さ”)

.

UE UE UE KAWASEMI YOU BASTARD WITH NO SELF-PRESERVATION (affectionate). Looking at it again, as a loanword from English,トリップして (trip-shite) likely refers to tripping (on drugs)… as in he’s in such a state of ecstasy—in seventh heaven, if you will—it’s like he’s high. ….oh my god hence Oktavia’s line:

.

“Though the engine overheats, the plane begins to dive / I don’t care, it’s right in front of me / The Seventh Heaven finally on the bright side”

-

(Long ramble about Oktavia’s lyrics, Japanese lyrics, English translyrics, melody, and phonology here)

As for my initial reaction Oktavia’s encore cover, thank you!! As I’ve mentioned in the reaction/analysis post I really like how she writes lyrics. Rhythmically, I’ve realized that it’s not just about fitting the Japanese lyrics’ syllables to English words while retaining the meaning, it’s about sonority (relative loudness of a speech sound) and how the sonority of the English lyrics should sound with the melody—and as a poet and occasional (English cover) lyricist who tries to rhyme and keep the rhythm, THAT’S REALLY DIFFICULT. I think… a vocal melody written for a song in Japanese would probably take advantage of how Japanese is mostly consonant-vowel (e.g. Datsugoku can be split up to da-tsu-go-ku, but don’t quote my on the technicalities), but rewrite the lyrics to English without thinking of rhythm and suddenly it’s hard to sing lyrics when they’re all mushed together, be it because the sonority just don’t work, or that there are too many consonants…

For example, it’s easier to sing

.

あの頃僕ら夢を見ていたんだ

(Ano koro bokura yume o miteita nda)

.

than it is to sing, say,

.

“Back then the two of us would dream of better lives than this”

.

even though the syllable count matches (do you know how hard it was to intentionally write a line that’d mess with the syllabic stress in relation to the melody)

SO THAT’S WHY I LOVE OKTAVIA’S LYRIC

.

“Tell me you remember when we’d dream of another life.”

.

The way the consonants at the ends of the words follow the vowels at the beginning of the next word makes it flow SO WELL. It seems she writes the lyrics based more on the melody’s ups-and-downs itself instead of the Japanese syllables, if that makes sense?

Oktavia’s mentioned something similar about rhyming and syllables in Japanese vs English lyrics once

.

“it is interesting though that rhyming is so integral to english lyrics but like in other languages (japanese) that sort of culture doesn't exist

my theory is that it's because english has so many different pronunciations to learn rhymes are more appealing 'cause they're rarer? vs japanese where because of the syllable system you can write lyrics that rhyme MUCH easier so it's not as prioritized???? idk”

.

The syllable system in Japanese is different from English so maybe it sounds nice in English when a (relatively) complicated syllabic system suddenly has rhymes where it usually wouldn’t…?

Ahaha, anyway, thank you for the ask! I was able to ramble about Datsugoku’s lyrics and gain more insight on the song even after a year…

[fairys-dream]

“Logan continues to use his senses instead of immediately jumping to conclusions, and ends up noticing some things about Creeds responses that he doesn’t quite believe he’s really picking up.”

chapter 2 is OUT!!!!!! its kinda short i knowww but its a segway into chapter 3 where (hopefully) gears will start actually moving ^^;

read it under the cut too if u want (im gonna start doing this w my fics from here on out)⤵️⤵️⤵️

For the rest of the mission, Logan found himself interpreting Creeds words and expressions in a new light.

Actually, it stopped him from getting sore with him more often than he normally would.

He’d feel the usual anger bubble instinctively inside him, but settle down after he took the time to assess the other feral’s true intent.

It was freaky.

And weird.

And a bit unsettling.

Hard for Logan’s mind to fully process.

Come on, it’s SABRETOOTH for cryin’ out loud! He’s still the same mean guy he’s always been.

But maybe he’s been a little hard on him-

No. He deserves it. He’s a damn full-blown psychopath. He’d kill me if given the opportunity, and I’d do just the same for him.

….did they really used to trust eachother?

Logan’s brain fought back and forth as he zoned out the chopper ride back to base after Wraith finally came to pick them up.

His mind went to one of the things North said while they were rescuing Cassidy, about Creed managing not to kill anyone. Normally he wouldn’t have ever thought to notice this, but as he went through his chaotic memories of the last few days, it seemed that under Logan’s order Creed hadn’t left as many people dead this time around.

And he suspected Mystique had also been secretly spared.

When they arrived back at base, Logan probed him about it.

“It ain’t like ya to leave a liability still breathin’.”

“Wasn’t a regular liability…”

The blonde looked away, a nervous expression on his face.

“…She’s ain't all bad.”

Logan could tell that Creed felt something for the shape-shifter. He wasn’t sure exactly what, but it was definitely something. It was hard to believe that the guy could harbor feelings like that for anything outside killing.

He let out a sigh.

“Alright, but if she comes messin’ around again, you're in charge of her.”

Creeds smile returned, looking relieved, and gave him a salute.

The salute seemed sarcastic, but to Logan’s surprise, was contained hints of seriousness.

But was definitely still mostly sarcastic.

That felt more like the Creed he knew.

————————————————

It had only been half an hour since returning, and they were already on their back and forth routine again, 2am post-mission meal forgotten in the midst of their bickering.

Smile still stuck to his stupid face, Creed taunted Logan with a snide remark.

And Logan, smirking, had said a particularly nasty threat in response.

Which caused Creeds smile to turn upwards into a wicked grin.

Except now, it lacked any malicious intent, so it wasn’t actually all that wicked.

Almost giddy?

Maybe even a little cute- nope, still Sabretooth.

Logan had to stop himself from hitting his head, having the urge to attack whatever part of his brain allowed for a thought like that to happen.

“Alright bub, I gotta clarify here ‘cause I think I’m goin’ a bit crazy- that look on yer face don’t mean you wanna slash my guts out?”

“Nah, not right now. Maybe later, though.”

Of course the thought of that would excite Creed. Logan already knew for a fact he enjoyed their brawls, that the other took some sick pleasure in seeing Logan’s animal side let loose. Like he felt pride or something for being the instigator of pushing him that far.

But he always wondered though…

“Do ya just like hurtin’ me? Or do ya also get off on the pain too?”

Somehow, Creeds smile got even wider.

“Take a guess.”

Judging by his state, probably yes to both.

“Perv.”

“Only fer you, runt. Nobody comes near as good as you do. Pain’s usually kinda annoying from anyone else, actually. ‘sides-“

Logan grunted as his already wild hair got messed up further by the taller man.

“I know you enjoy it too. That’s what makes it fun.”

He’d never admit it out loud, but the other feral had him pegged.

He hated how easily Creed could sense the things he tried so hard to keep hidden. Hated how he acted like he knew him.

And really hated how often he was right.

Logan grabbed the other’s wrist as it left his hair, quickly biting deep into his hand, enough to taste the metallic taste of blood on his tongue as he released him.

“OW- fuckin’ runt…”

Logan looked smugly up at him, licking the blood off his teeth as he grinned at him.

“What? Thought you liked it.”

Victor stared at him for a moment.

Then rubbed his bloody hand roughly over Logan’s face, smearing the blood onto him and chuckling.

Creed clearly wanted Logan to start the fight, and boy, he was gonna get it.

But soon after the first few pots and plates hit the kitchen floor, North appeared in the doorway.

“Creed, lay off it! It’s 2 in the fucking morning!”

“What?! The fuck ya’ yellin’ at me for?!”

Logan snikted his claw out from Creeds ribs, Creed grunting from the harsh removal.

“Yeah, real mature, Creed. People’ll are tryin’ to get their beauty sleep ‘round here, yknow.”

Creed glared down at Logan.

Before Logan could get a good read on that expression, it changed back to a grin, accompanied by a low husky chuckle.

“You better get some too, ‘cause we’re getting right back into this as soon as you wake up-“

Creed poked a finger against his chest-

“-runt.”

Logan couldn’t stop the slight blush from creeping up his face due to what his senses were picking up.

…. No, Creed felt like that about all acts of violence. Definitely got some perverse satisfaction outta it.

Yeah, thats all that was.

Creed grabbed his meal off the counter and turned to leave as North spoke up again, exhaustion clear in his tone.

“Can you schedule that till at least after 10? I’d really appreciate not having to deal with both your shit early on a Special Pass.”

“Sure, whatever, North.”

Right.

He totally forgot about the Pass.

Well, at least his other teammates would still be around.

God forbid he’d ever have to spend one of those with only Creed.